Alan Watt on

"Sweet Liberty" with Jackie Patru

September 2, 2004




Jackie:  Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for joining us tonight on Sweet Liberty. Today is Thursday. It is the last day of our broadcast week. It is 2nd of September in the year 2004 and today was probably one of the most beautiful days that we have had all this summer and I mean that seriously. The air was dry and it was warm, but not humid of course, and it was just absolutely gorgeous.


Alan Watt, thanks for being with us tonight.


Alan:  It's nice to be here.


Jackie:  How are you this evening?


Alan:  Not so bad.


Jackie:  And how is Murphy's Law doing with you lately?


Alan:  Murphy's always hanging around.


Jackie:  Well, Alan I don't believe last night when we finished there was anything left hanging where we were going to start, so where would you like to start this evening?


Alan:  Oh boy. Well, I think people should realize that the world today is simply a stage, which was planned eons ago basically.


Jackie:  I'm sorry. Your volume is low for me again by the way. You said it was planned what?


Alan:  Eons ago and you don't change something overnight that's been working steadily and planning steadily and enforcing steadily. You cannot change that in a single lifetime and that's what people generally think they have to do. The only reason they think they must change in their lifetime is because that which they're used to (which is the system that we're born in) is now changing again and they're fighting to try to keep what they think was their system.


Jackie:  Maybe because I've said this myself in the past to take our country back. What does that mean? Go back to the way it used to be? It's never been the way it should be, Alan.


Alan:  Never, never. It didn't even begin that way. In fact, sovereign nations were part of the plan, a stage in the plan to serve again another purpose – a stepping-stone towards ultimately internationalism and a one-world government system.


Jackie:  Yes and you were talking about the trilateral plan with the Americas being one and the European Union being a second. Would you explain that again? I think we talked about this not on air, didn't we?


Alan:  Yes, that's right. Karl Marx wrote about this in the 1840's and Karl Marx was a nobody at the time. He was a front man who was paid by the Rothschild's to live in London after being booted out of Germany and he came up with the "Communist Manifesto" and a few other books with his friend Engels. He actually wrote about a world to come that they were working for, which would comprise of three basic trading blocks which would consist of a United Americas, a United Europe and a Pacific Rim conglomeration under a supreme world government; and it's no coincidence that we're on the very verge of it being announced today. It's been steadily worked at. Capitalism was an artificial creation. Its antithesis communism was a necessary part of capitalism and the aims of capitalism to create the new system, the synthesis of them both, which is dominant elite that's running the world under a communistic type bureaucracy running the rest of the people beneath them.


Jackie:  Today they're calling it democratization.


Alan:  That's correct.


Jackie:  They're democratizing the nations.


Alan:   Yes and this was planned a long, long time ago and it started an awful long time ago. People at one time lived in tribes and tribes were the closest system you could have to any kind of natural living. Of course, with the advent of money, which was the truly artificial creation – before you had barter. People would barter for what they wanted. Now you have a third person who comes in and says this coin is worth that sack of wheat and for a percentage of your wheat I'll make this transaction for you; and once the third party came in, he eventually obviously ended up controlling the guys with exchanging sacks and it's been that way ever since. From then, they had to create the first city and the legends of Nimrod, the city builder. Everyone pretty well knows the reason the Masons praise Nimrod, or for what he stands for, is he created the first artificial system of human living, which was bringing people off the rural areas, creating a city which was walled, so they were walled in and then creating a bureaucracy and taxing the people outside of the city because people in the city produced nothing. They can't even feed themselves and so the artificial ends up lording over the natural, and it's still the same way today.


Jackie:  And what timeline and where was Nimrod?


Alan:  Nimrod is legendary. It's pre-everything. It's half myth and half legend. It's pre-history really.


Jackie:  In other words before Sumer?


Alan:  Yes, even before Sumer because all these legends were borrowed even to the time of Sumer and we know there's another bunch called the Hurrians that pre-existed the Sumerians and they apparently also had the trade routes which Sumer eventually took over.


Jackie:  And was Sumer supposed to be about 6,000 years ago?


Alan:  Roughly about that, yes. Once again, Sumer appeared on the scene as a complete basic system. It didn't evolve into a system. It appeared out of nowhere with a complete system of trading with money – with even receipts, date receipts you could have and forms of checking accounts and priesthoods to deal, who did all the work that the modern bureaucrats do and they ran the trading for the known world at that time, but they were also a form of governmental bureaucracy for the rest of the whole world as well. I don't think much has changed. 


Jackie:  I was thinking about those caravans. Were they back in that time? The caravans of camels that had those trading routes?


Alan:  They had them before Sumer because they had so many of the Harappan peoples' old dwelling places that pre-existed the Sumerian trading routes and they also had a complete route from Egypt all the way to China, and that was pre-Sumer.


Jackie:  What race would the Hurrians have been?


Alan:  It's difficult to say. We know for instance that the original Sumerians, who may have taken over, were dark-haired primarily. In fact, one of their prayers to their god Enki was to thank Enki for making them the dark-haired people who ruled over the fair-haired, but they got invaded themselves by other Arabic peoples called the Akkadian and they merged with the Sumerians and eventually the Akkadian. However, the original Sumerian peoples were definitely dark-haired. That doesn't mean that the kings and queens were, because they found even when they dug up what turned out to be the local garbage dump they found deep down some of the royal graves there.


Jackie:  In the rubbish dumps they found royal graves?


Alan:  Later peoples had turned it into rubbish dumps, but they did find some old articles. They did find some amazing tombs where a few hundred peasants or servants were killed along side the royalty--


Jackie:  So they could serve them?


Alan:  Yes and there were no signs of struggle, so they think they all took poison of some kind. Once again, the queen especially her wigs were found and they were all made of the local hair of the people, but they think that her hair may have been of a more fair color, her own particular hair.


Jackie:  That's intriguing, mysterious.


Alan:  I don't think it's ever been any different. As I say, the present royalty of Europe lord over people and if you really traced their ancestry they never interbred with the native people.


Jackie:  It seems that from things that I've read that the old gods like Quetzalcoatl, that he was described as a white man coming out of the ocean and so many of them describe their gods as white.


Alan:  That's right.


Jackie:  So Alan, here I go again. I don't which question to ask first.  Never mind because they're all gone right now. I haven't been writing them down. The Hurrians, the gods.


Alan:  The planet is so old that you cannot change it in a generation because the system you're living in and been born is complete all around you as a system. Lenin himself gave a lot away in his writings because he could afford to, and Lenin was just another front man for the antithesis basically.


Jackie:  When you were talking about Karl Marx and his writings, he was a front man too.


Alan:  All of them, yes.


Jackie:  In other words, what he was writing wasn't his plan.


Alan:  No, no. In fact, it was 20 or 30 years before they even put Karl Marx's name on the "Communist Manifesto." He was so long down on the tiers that it wasn't worth mentioning his name at first.


Jackie:  A trade on the family tree?


Alan:  Yes that's right. His real name was Karl Marx Mordechai Levi.


Jackie:  One of the questions that popped into my mind as we were talking about these rulers and they're white skinned or fair skinned. They have light hair or red hair, blue and green eyes and now you're saying all the way back to Sumer and before there's evidence that that's what it was. One of my questions is why is the white race being annihilated today and is the white race—maybe this would have to be an opinion, maybe an educated guess—but is the white race today part of that race of all long, long ago?


Alan:  I think this royalty that keeps cropping up was a separate race in itself. Going back even further to Greek legend and some of the Arabic legends when they talk about the troglodytes, which is just a Greek term for these cave or underground dwellers. These particular creatures were pretty well complete albino. Now whether the white race was bred off of that, it's hard to tell. It's possible.


Jackie:  Would you describe to our listeners what you described to me out of that real old, old book on freemasonry? There were different types of beings that were being described in that book.


Alan:  They were the tree dwellers they claim that just hopped around in the trees and ate the fruit and so on. Some of them would come down to kill animals and then you had these troglodytes that would rush out of the caves when the animals had been slain by the tree dwellers, chase off the tree dwellers and then drink the blood of the animals that were killed. These troglodytes were supposed to be completely ruthless to every other species.


Jackie:  Describe them the way you described them. They had no lower jaw, did they?


Alan:  That's right. They were very thin creatures, very white, completely white.


Jackie:  Spindly, lacking in musculature?


Alan:  Yes and it's funny because I remember reading a scientific magazine many years ago saying what the future man might be like, if science was to take its full course and go into artificial food or food that was liquefied and went straight through the body basically.


Jackie:  So we wouldn't need a lower jaw?


Alan:  You wouldn't need a jaw at all, really. You'd have nothing to chew. You'd have spindly legs because you wouldn't have to exercise if you were taking long voyages in spacecrafts, for instance, which is one of the theories of the future and how man would look like. It put me in mind I read this Masonic book of that very thing. These creatures, it's hard to see how they got to that stage by themselves. You would think everything else would have eradicated them, but again it's thought that they may have had advanced weaponry and that's how they managed to survive.


Jackie:  Oh thank you, because the thought that occurred to me was if they were so spindly and weak, then how in the world would they have the strength to force away the people that did the killing?


Alan:  Yes, and they were ruthless apparently.


Jackie:  And a slit for a mouth because they were just blood drinkers?


Alan:  Yes.


Jackie:  That sounds very familiar, doesn't it, Alan? 


Alan:  Oh it does and I think that's where all the old vampire films come from. I think the vampire stories of Masonic tongue-in-cheek were maybe a very real thing that happened long ago.


Jackie:  Did they say anything about whether they had hair or not? Head hair or body hair?


Alan:  I can't remember that.


Jackie:  I don't recall you reading about it either, but as you were describing them reading that I can recall that what I was picturing were the pictures we see of these so-called aliens.


Alan:  What I do remember too is that made a funny hissing sound when they spoke to each other. It was the high-pitched hissing sound rather than the normal vocal sound.


Jackie:  That's interesting. Do you have any thoughts or understanding of why today, and it does seem that it's intentional, extremely, why is the white race being eradicated, mixed all up with the other colors?


Alan:  If you go back to the Brahman legends of the north of India, the Brahmans there claim that they are descended from the man from the previous age, that they came through the last catastrophe. They claim that where the Black Sea is today was a testing ground where different types of animals and humans were created. It was actually a valley at one time and they claim that it was a big laboratory and these "scientists" were experimenting with different types and eventually the experiment got out of hand and the people began to eat each other and so they flooded the whole valley and that became the Black Sea. I think man is far, far older than we know. Far older and I'm pretty certain that if science, for instance, today where they're going with their modifications and their adaptations of the human species for other tasks in the future, then it would be obvious that we've gone through this before. They would have done the same thing in the previous age. They would always get to the same point where they'd have to change and adapt and so on, exactly as Plato talked about in "The Republic"—creating new types of humans for different tasks, special hybrids; but the Brahmans do say that was on the go prior to the previous world catastrophes.


Jackie:  I'm sorry Alan. I had a call come in here and so everything you said I did not hear, but this was Annette calling and she couldn't understand. She said that even the American Indians knew the difference between the pale face and that it's a seed line and it's the seed of Cain and why didn't you bring all this out?


Alan:  It's doesn't mean it's the seed of Cain. You can't bring Plato's Cave along through everything with you. Eventually sometimes you have to leave the cave behind or you associate all brand new information back to the cave but in the previous areas, you see. The mark of Cain was circumcision. It wasn't a people. It was a brotherhood. Circumcision was the mark and that's how all Arabs and even today some of the high sheiks will do this. They put their hand under the person's kilt, as they say, to see if you were a brother and the lowly person would swear allegiance to his chief that way in Arabic countries and he would swear it literally "on his future generations." They were all Semitic peoples. That's where the word seminary comes from, semen, that's where it comes from, and you swear oaths by literally grasping the other person's penis. That was part of the ancient law structure of all the old Semitic cultures.


Jackie:  I would like to go back for just a moment. You're saying that the mark of Cain is actually a circumcision and that was real old and that was even before the Bible?


Alan:  Yes, in fact the Egyptians were also circumcised.


Jackie:  This has never made sense to me in the Old Testament where it says Adam and Eve were the first people. They had their sons Cain and Abel and then Cain slew Abel and then went to a land and took himself a wife, but people who are into the bloodline that the whites are really the chosen of Jehovah or Yahweh. That is one of the big things that this is all hanging on, I believe.


Alan:  But that's their problem.  In Genesis there are two creations. There's the first creation and again this is all mystic. If you understand the esoteric you understand the beginnings and you have the void and the darkness and the deep, which is the abyss, and then you have eventually the Garden of Eden. You have the first creation and it's man and woman and in his image he created them; and then you read further on and it says there was no one to till the soil so he created Adam and then Eve. There's two creations there and that's the secret between the rulership dynasties and the peasant laborer. In it's an allegory form for the purpose of Adam and Eve.


Jackie:  It's an allegory?


Alan:  Yes.


Jackie:  Well that makes a whole lot more sense because I don't know how somebody could justify in their mind that this all started with Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel, the first people, when evidentially according to just what the story says that he went and took a wife. I can remember when I was 15 and reading the Bible and that was one of the things that grabbed me and I thought well where did these other people come from then?


Alan:  Of course, it says in the Bible to go out and repopulate the earth. Repopulate, which meant it was populated before. Really, this whole part starts with the beginning of the next age, in other words, after a previous catastrophe when not everybody was killed off but a lot were.


Jackie:  There have been books written about the seed of Cain.


Alan:  Of course Cain is all allegory because you think about Abel and what it means as well and into the English language, because all the mystery religions eventually were adapted into the English language, which was again a Masonic creation you might say. However, the word cannibal, part Cain and Abel, you see, and Cain of course – the old god didn't know what was going on, so they had to ask him where his brother was.


Jackie:  And did he say I ate him?


Alan:  Basically you're left with the conclusion that he was eaten but it means more than that. It also means the clever part of it, the killing of the natural person who herded animals – the part of themselves pretty well, the one that was favored by the creator. Not the god but the creator.


Jackie:  Oh I'm sorry. Okay, hold that because I'd like you to repeat it because I really didn't get what you said and I will expand on this after this break. First of all, I just want to do a little recap that the story you're saying the story in the Old Testament of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, is allegory. The two creations is meant, one for the elite, and one for the worker bees, I guess you would call it.


Alan:  That's right.


Jackie:  And those are the ones that were supposed to go out and till the field and everything.


Alan:  Do all the tilling of the soil, yes.


Jackie:  And you said that Cain and Abel the whole story is an allegory and that Cain-Abel actually stands for cannibal and the evidence in that story is that they're saying that Abel ate Cain.


Alan:  Cain ate Abel. Again, it's to do with what they tell you to please the deity. The sacrifices that Abel gave to the deity were acceptable, but the ones that Cain gave were unacceptable.


Jackie:  What did Cain give?


Alan:  Cain was a farmer who grew grain and the meaning behind it all was that he had to know basic sciences to fulfill his occupation; whereas Abel was a natural sort of nomad where he went with his animals wherever they grazed, so he lived more naturally. Therefore, it's really a war between the man who lived naturally and the one who had to use science to make his crops grow. Science conquered the natural man is really what they mean here. That's what it means.


Jackie:  You talk about thinking in the cave and even when new information comes it's sort of like thinking in the box, isn't it?


Alan:  Oh yes.


Jackie:  I mean it's a term that is used today, getting outside of the box instead of thinking in the box. I received a letter and information from Annette, and I don't say this meanly at all, because I reread it tonight, this evening and I reread the information that she had sent and with the letter that she had sent to somebody and she had sent me a copy of it. She was giving a bit of a background on her own progress, if you would, and she had been a Mormon and then she became involved in metaphysics, studied metaphysics and she was reading the Old Testament she wondered how those terrible people could be God's chosen. That led her into the understanding where she is now and where so many people are instead of realizing that our creator does not choose special – a real creator, a true creator is not going to say I'm going to take you to be my people and I'm going to be your god, but instead of rejecting that, then what happened was she began study the bloodline stuff and probably studying under people and reading information. Hello?


Unidentified Caller:  Yes, can I ask a question? Alan?


Jackie:  Go ahead.


Unidentified Caller:  I just wanted to know, in the Bible you were talking about Genesis where the Lord said to Cain when he was chased out, he told Cain, he said I'm going to put a mark on you so that everyone will be able to recognize you and Cain was really upset. He says if you do this, whoever will see me will want to kill me; and I don't know what happened after that. They sent him away. Anyway, is this mark what I see today in the Jewish people, you know the yellowish skin, the course hair, the large ears, the large mouth. Sort of Sarah Jessica Parker or Barbara Streisand kind of nose. I just want to know does he feel that that's what that mark is for us. Thank you.


Jackie:  Okay. She has to get a radio back on for your answer, Alan. Maybe she didn't hear you say that the whole story was an allegory? Do you want to address that?


Alan:  It isn't just that. I mean the serpents, for instance, according to the higher masons, represented a wise man from a previous age and he became the father of Cain. Cain was a bloodline different again from Abel and Adam was not his father; that's what they mean by that.


Jackie:  By the serpent?


Alan:  A high priest from a previous age. That's what it really means.


Jackie:  That's how it translates?


Alan:  That's what all the mystery religions claim, yes, the higher you go, and, in other words, he was injected with the intelligence, the scientific bent you might say.


Jackie:  Abel or Cain?


Alan:  Cain.


Jackie:  Oh I thought it was Cain – oh, that's right. Cain slew Abel.


Alan:  Of course, once Cain left and was chased out – and, by the way, in the older manuscripts they tell you that they all wore aprons, and that's representative of the present Masonic aprons, that's why the mark had to be covered.


Jackie:  And the mark being the circumcision?


Alan:  Circumcision. Let's be honest here. If a creator made you perfect in every way, in his own likeness, why would he then demand that you cut a bit of your skin off?


Jackie:  In a very sensitive place.


Alan:  This is a different purpose all together.


Jackie:  And so her question was about the appearance of the Jews today.


Alan:  I have a train going by from China. They go across Canada everyday and bring Costco all of its goods. Hold on a second.


Jackie:  Did you hear what I asked, Alan?


Alan:  No.


Jackie:  Well I just wanted you to – I guess you did answer it, but she did ask if the mark was the appearance of the Jews today?


Alan:  No. It wasn't Jews. In fact, there were no Jews at the time of Cain and Abel. It pre-existed all of that and circumcision was common amongst all of the so-called Semitic peoples. The Egyptians, when they fought the peoples of the sea who invaded from somewhere in the Aegean, were surprised to find that these enemies also were circumcised as they were. Circumcision was a common thing because they all shared basically a common religion, even though the deities had different names.


Jackie:  Yes and it was the same priesthoods that were writing these religions?


Alan:  I am certain of it because since they had international trade in those days and they had with the trade routes also went the priests. The priests had to know all the religions that different peoples were worshiping were in fact the same religion under different names. You always had a dynasty of a father, mother and a son, always, and of course they give them different names; and so the Egyptians would never think the guys to the north across the water there were worshipping the same deities, but they were in fact. Cain, anyway, supposedly his father was you might say Lucifer or high priest from a previous age and because a he had superior genes, this great inbreeding thing again, he became the first artificer or worker in metals and made tools and weapons and scientifically created things.


Jackie:  So you're saying that he would have learned that through the priesthood?


Alan:  He would have learned it, absolutely, and again the inference is that he inherited that type of mentality to understand it.


Jackie:  What people, if you know this, are considered the people who carry the mark of Cain today? Is it the Jews?


Alan:  There are some, definitely a lot actually, of higher-up ones, but really it's one separate people who are at the top of the tree in almost every country, regardless of what they claim to be. They're separate all together.


Jackie:  In other words, the elite of the Jews are not of the same bloodline as the average Jews today?


Alan:  No. I mean the average Jew today does not marry his sister or his niece, but when you look at royalty for instance that claim to be – the Queen is the head of the Church of England, a Protestant church and yet look at the inbreeding they do.


Jackie:  She's got a real horse face.


Alan:  Some of them have been some disasters with Princess Anne. She liked horses and she had a nice smile along side her horse. They kind of matched each other and Prince Charles looks like Akhen-Aton of Egypt.


Jackie:  And he has very little of a chin, doesn't he?


Alan:  Little chin, lock neck, big hips. Interestingly enough too, Charles said at one point that he was the descendent of David and then he said he was also a descendent of Noah. The whole allegory of Noah is the same elite coming through another disaster and surviving and starting the mystery all over again of how you dominate the ordinary people. That's the reality of Noah. Noah was chosen to survive only because he had not out bred of his family lineage. He inbred only. He was perfect in his generations; so you have this elite coming through.


Jackie:  It's starting to come out today, although I think a lot of people don't see it, but I have an article. It was in a newspaper and it was a group of rabbis who actually made the statement that there is no historical truth in the Old Testament, but nobody seems to pick up on that, Alan. 


Alan:  I mean the fact is, in no one else's history was there even a place called Israel. It's only in the Bible. When you look at the histories of Greece, who ruled that area at one time, before the Romans, they called it Edomia. The whole land was called Edomia and then when the Romans moved in it was basically the same.


Jackie:  Would I be pronouncing that "Idumean" [Idumea]?  Was that the same thing you just said?


Alan:  That's right.  Interestingly, a lot of them have names that were actually Edomian, like Jack Elam the actor, he did a lot of old westerns, but Elam was basically the capital of Edomia at one time and yet he was a Jew, so there's a big controversy about was there ever a historical Israel.


Jackie:  Well, historical Israel actually, I think, isn't it because it's my people Israel?  I mean it was actually tribes.


Alan:  There were no tribes. It was Isis - Ra - El.  Is-ra-el. It was the trinity.


Jackie:  That's where Israel came from.


Alan:  It was a religion that spread all over the area, you see, and that came from Egypt itself.


Jackie:  So these two tribes, how many ever there were, the lost tribes of Israel, that is not what we think it means?


Alan:  Not at all. It's astronomy in fact. It's astronomy and astrology. It's the 12 houses of the Zodiac and if you look at the blessings that Jacob gives on the son, you'll see the allegory within each blessing of a symbol of one of the houses of the zodiac. Dan, of course, he's the eagle. He's also the serpent because the eagle basically rises – Aquila rises opposite Draco, which is the old serpent. That used to be where the old North Star was a one time; now it's Polaris. Another tribe is like a lion. Judah is like a lion. That's Leo. Each blessing is actually one of the houses of the zodiac, so they never existed as a people and the rabbis all know this. They're all well aware of this. It's zodiacal. There were three primary groups in existence in ancient times of priests and one was solar, one was lunar and one was stellar, the stars. Now I'm sure they all came under a higher authority above them all, but that's how they ruled all the people. It's entirely zodiacal and the blessings themselves are that. They are the symbols of the zodiac.


Jackie:  And the rabbis know all this?


Alan:  Oh they know it all, yes.


Jackie:  Why do you think they came out publicly and admitted that there is no historical truth in the Old Testament?


Alan:  I think now is probably the right time because--


Jackie:  Because they want to destroy all religions and mold them into the one?


Alan:  That's part of it too, sure. I mean it's the same with the Christian guys. The ecumenical movement is doing the same job to destroy that, you see, at the same time and that's well financed too, big players there.  They always do things at the right time. As Masons, once a temple has fulfilled its structure, you knock it down to build anew.


Jackie:  They're knocking the pins right out from under all of the people who have been so steeped. Jews and Christians in the Bible and I was talking to one of our listeners, very fascinating and intelligent man but he made a statement. He said if you have a bottle and you empty it – or let's say for example this religion Judeo-Christian, which is almost today as one, but let's say that you knock everything out from under people where they finally realized that it has all been made up for them, then you've created a vacuum and if there isn't something to fill that vacuum, something real, then more garbage will just come into it.


Alan:  Actually you see they have been creating a new religion and they've been pushing it for quite a few years, and it's based on earth worship. Mikhail Gorbachev wrote a book and it's called "Towards a New Civilization" and in it he said that he himself was an atheist and later on in the book he says, "we for the global society are creating a new world religion. It will be based on earth worship and it must be so."  So there you go. We've watched the Buffy things on TV for years now, there's been witches programs on TV for years, so they're pushing all this stuff because this is the new religion which is to move in and take over.


Jackie:  It actually sounds like when they're getting into earth worship and that almost that it's going back to the ancient religious times.


Alan:  Yes, because when you have a society run by one single power worldwide you want total control of all land and all people and all animals and everything else, and you want the people to believe they're just part of the same structure. You have the same value as any other animal and your animals are your brothers and your sisters et cetera, et cetera and therefore when the government wants to reduce your populations, the people will do it gladly. In ancient times they had the first-born being killed every year.


Jackie:  Yes and the new religion will probably go back to sacrifices.


Alan:  The new religions in its higher degrees already do it.


Jackie:  We're out of time here, Alan, and the music is playing and I understand that we are not able to be heard over the music. I want to thank you for being on with us this week and I know we'll do some more. All right, thank you very much. Good night, Alan.



(Transcribed by Linda)